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posted ago by endersshadow ago by endersshadow +32 / -0

Sorry if this has been asked before, but now that we are on the .win network, is there a reason these two are still separate things?

Comments (49)
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deleted 28 points ago +30 / -2
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endersshadow [S] 12 points ago +12 / -0

Okay cool - that sounds reasonable.

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Reinholt 9 points ago +9 / -0

I think it's good to have both, and hopefully the mods can put down the pitchforks now that reddit threatening to ban people over false flag user bullshit is gone.

I think there is merit to the approach of the KIA mods, though I haven't always agreed with their exact actions. I think there is merit to the approach of the KIA2 mods, though I haven't always agreed with their exact actions. Hopefully both can agree it's better that both exist.

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HandofBane -3 points ago +6 / -9

I made an "olive branch" post to KiA2 on reddit, which went about as well as I expected because people want to eat sleep and breathe outrage rather than see what I was actually saying. We are not banning anyone from there preemptively, including people who had been banned on KiA reddit previously. Everyone gets amnesty, they just have to not be dicks about it when they come here. Funnily enough there are at least two people in this very thread who had been banned (temp or perma) from KiA that are being chill right now.

We have banned exactly one KiA2 user so far, who went full retard in his first comment here, making a "Hitler did nothing wrong" comment. I don't care where anyone is from, that kind of shit does not fly here, and would probably have been removed and the user banned on KiA2 reddit, too.

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Quixotick 7 points ago +8 / -1

We have banned exactly one KiA2 user so far, who went full retard in his first comment here, making a "Hitler did nothing wrong" comment.

Some people can't suppress their /pol/ power level.

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deleted 5 points ago +8 / -3
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HandofBane 1 point ago +3 / -2

There were no demands for apologies, no "you must bow down" or any of that kind of shit. Just my pointing out that we were not importing bans over, and that meant for everyone, including Antonio, who has gone out of his way at every opportunity to play up his victimhood over his being banned from KiA reddit. There were certainly demands that I bow down, apologize and grovel from folks there. I will do no such thing, because I expect no such thing from anyone who chooses to take advantage of not being banned from here.

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wharris2001 4 points ago +7 / -3

I belong to both communities on Reddit, and both communities on .win. Your alleged "olive branch" was full of snark. You were probablly thinking of the KiA2 members you banned from KiA1 when you posted it, but most members of KiA2 are there because of a non-inflamatory preference for their moderation style (i.e. a broader view of relevant topics) and have never been banned from KiA1. Telling those users they have "a second chance" is condescending.

Which is entirely your right to do so under KiA2 rules.

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HandofBane 1 point ago +4 / -3

See, that's the problem with trying to read intent in something. You will almost always get it wrong. There was no snark in that, but I sure as fuck was tired when I wrote it, as I had just dealt with nearly 12 hours straight of getting this site up and running, dealing with the fallout of the admin sitewide decision, making sure people who had to do their parts to get this site functional had done their parts, all while getting a ton of PMs/DMs from folks worried about retroactive enforcement by the admins in regards to the rule change.

but most members of KiA2 are there because of a non-inflamatory preference for their moderation style

No, that is certainly a part of the community there, but you cannot say "most" when most of the population there, especially the increased active users, are folks who came in well after the split and have had little or no participation on KiA itself.

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wharris2001 1 point ago +2 / -1

Back on Reddit one of the available flairs indicates that the owner was part of the moderation wars/vote/discussion that led to KiA2's activation. It is one of the more popular ones.

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HandofBane -1 points ago +2 / -3

Gotta maintain that tribalism attitude.

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wharris2001 1 point ago +3 / -2

If by "tribalism", you mean "Proof that they were part of the original community" then you are correct.

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DonnyCypra 3 points ago +4 / -1

I think some people like to test the limits of free speech when they get to more open platforms. That being said I don't think TD would want something edgelording in that particular fashion on the platform with an election coming up. Any reporter seeing it would not be interesting in the nuances of separate communities

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H_Guderian 1 point ago +3 / -2

It was because you were saying two things. On one hand your words looked like compromise, but the intent was given away by how the sub itself was run.

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DonnyCypra 3 points ago +3 / -0

Where did the name come from anyway?

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HandofBane 1 point ago +2 / -1

The KotakuInAction name? Originally, when everything kicked off shortly before Gamergate started, there was a wide spread of people just finding out about the ZoePost thing which pointed out that Nathan Grayson of Kotaku had written several positive pieces (in some cases wedging it into pieces on other things) about Zoe Quinn in an effort to get on her good side and into her pants. This was a gross breach of journalistic ethics, which put Kotaku as one of the key "targets" for getting ethical reforms in place. One of the first places that didn't immediately kill all posts/comments about the issue was TumblrInAction on reddit - they decided we were overrunning them, and several mods decided to spin off to form KotakuInAction to get folks in a more focused environment. Everything kind of spiraled out from there.

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MaouRem 8 points ago +9 / -1

Just a dispute over how to moderate the same issues and how broad the topic should be, having seen both they attract different audiences so I don't think members of each get along well enough to merge either

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endersshadow [S] 8 points ago +9 / -1

I think there is a LOT of crossover between the two (me being one of them) but I agree that it seems like it should be kept as two different things. Thanks for the info.

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mbnhedger 3 points ago +4 / -1

theres crossover for sure, but there is definitely differences in the degree and the tactics on which the culture war gets fought.

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HandofBane 0 points ago +3 / -3

It's a difference of holding to absolute principles regarding how to approach the "war", vs being willing to adopt the tactics the "enemy" uses to use against them.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I have no desire to be MovieBob.

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veus_dolt 7 points ago +8 / -1

If the mods here will allow it, here's a thread from kia2.win on the same question:

https://kotakuinaction2.win/p/GIJGCGXq/difference-between-kia-and-kia2/c/

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HandofBane 0 points ago +7 / -7

Not removing this, but I am going to point out the misinterpretations and outright falsehoods in that top reply, since it keeps getting quoted around on TD itself, and elsewhere.

It is impossible to oppose these things without opposing leftism itself. Virtually all bad journalism and censorship is coming from the left.

False, it's just easier to find this shit coming from the left because the left has a larger mainstream presence. Censorship runs rampant on the right, too - just look at what Saidit, Gab and Parler have been adding to their list of things they consider censor-worthy after claiming to be homes for free speech.

The mods leaned more left

At last tally, our mod team was about 1/3 right wing, 1/3 left wing, and 1/3 yuropoors of various leanings. That may have actually drifted more right in recent months, as one of our lefties has decided he's probably voting Trump this year for various reasons.

they became obsessed with making sure the sub did not become "another T_D". So they implemented a ridiculously vague rule of "no unrelated politics". They then used this rule to remove content that was absolutely relevant but supported conservativism.

"No Unrelated Politics" was originally offered up and voted on by the userbase to be added as a rule because of a wave of spam from the folks at /r/Sanders4President, back at the end of 2015. We recognized we had a broad political mix of users from all across the spectrum, and didn't want to alienate any of them including the right wingers at the time that were getting annoyed at the leftie spam. Part of the issue was that political posts that had absolutely nothing to do with gaming, journalism ethics, or similar were being posted that nearly every time turned into tribal shit flinging between different political factions over things that had nothing to do with KiA itself. We implemented the rule to curtail that kind of thing before it happened. There's an old saying that if you want to keep your friends, you don't talk politics, religion or sex at the dinner table - that was the theory we have been operating around.

At one point, the mods actually put the rules to a vote. The users overwhelmingly opposed the absurd content removals.

Another misrepresentation. The vote was originally between three options intended to cut back on some wildly tangential posts that kept on causing the tribal fighting I mentioned in the last point. A last minute decision was made by the then-head mod (I had retired for almost a year before coming back, this was during that timeframe) to add a fourth option "no further changes" with it being made clear in the replies that there may be a need for changes later if this did not resolve the issues that were attempting to be fixed.

The mods didn't care. They ignored the results of the vote and continued arbitrarily removing content.

The mods stuck with the vote result of "make no further changes" for about two months, until the issues that were trying to be addressed erupted to the point that either something had to be done, or they were going to be forced to ban dozens of users for breaking Rule 1 (don't be a dick) due to that same unrelated political tribal shit flinging causing people to constantly attack each other over things that had - at their core - nothing to do with KiA.

On a related note: the Kia mods lost their shit when users started talking trash about polyamory. I can't imagine the mods would have behaved this way unless one or more of them were engaged in the polyamorous lifestyle. We might have been dealing with literal cucks.

Only bringing this one in because it's something that parts of the KiA2 crowd love to mention so they can pretend that they have any idea what goes on in the personal lives of mods here. One of our mods had been involved in poly stuff in the past... as the bull in a relationship. But recognizing that possibility would shatter any attempt at painting the KiA mods as "evil sjw cucks".

Kotakuinaction2 was created as a lifeboat for those who abandoned the increasingly garbage moderation of Kia.

We actually encouraged the split when it happened, in part because it meant most of the users causing the biggest tribal-based issues attacking other users would have a place they could vent on that we would no longer have to warn/ban them or the people they picked fights with for breaking Rule 1. It became a self-selecting containment sub. There were some users who went over that had legitimate concerns about parts of Rule 3 (our posting guidelines), and we felt the need to address that to the point where we actually hired on one of those critics from KiA2 as part of our mod team (and another critic who stayed on KiA without making the jump to 2) to help revamp Rule 3 dramatically, to permit a lot of content that had been inadvertently caught and blocked that should have been allowed to get through. That was about 8 months ago we hired them on, and we made the Rule 3 revamp around 6 months ago. We also intend to thin it down a bit more over the next few weeks here, as we get this site more fully functional and get settled in.

kia2 mods are stridently free speech (to the extent that Reddit permits

The great irony there is that KiA2 on reddit actually censored more than we did, making several words forbidden, regardless of context. We may have slapped people for being anti-semitic shitheads using echoes, but we never banned the use of words like "faggot" or "tranny".

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veus_dolt 1 point ago +3 / -2

i honestly just wasn't sure if it was within the rules or not, neither intended to endores or detract from anyone's perspective/interpretation of things etc.

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H_Guderian 1 point ago +3 / -2

In the Culture War that sparked GG, what are Unrelated Politics?

As to the content votes "These rules were intended because we don't trust the people to come here to generate the content we want them to."

You say: "Part of the issue was that political posts that had absolutely nothing to do with gaming, journalism ethics, or similar were being posted that nearly every time turned into tribal shit flinging between different political factions over things that had nothing to do with KiA itself. We implemented the rule to curtail that kind of thing before it happened."

Listen, it was Reddit. If someone posted something and it got upvoted and made it to the top - That is how this kind of system works! If a funny post or a tangent post made it to the top maybe it was just a slow news day and people were upvoting a laugh.

KiA was neutered by stuffing it into a little safe box. At one point KiA was the leading edge of the culture war, mentioned by name. For the most part it became long forgotten, just reposting news articles from other places.

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Txiribiton 3 points ago +3 / -0

Say what you want but the karma rules only allows the system to be played and destroyed, a tool for astroturfers, trolls and bots.

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Shadist 0 points ago +3 / -3

Only bringing this one in because it's something that parts of the KiA2 crowd love to mention so they can pretend that they have any idea what goes on in the personal lives of mods here. One of our mods had been involved in poly stuff in the past... as the bull in a relationship. But recognizing that possibility would shatter any attempt at painting the KiA mods as "evil sjw cucks".

Going to add one thing here... the real issue I have with this particular mistelling of theirs is that it's flat out a lie.

Someone was warned and before starting to write this I couldn't t even remember for what, and in the warning message I made a off-hand comment about what they were saying was wrong judging by my experiences in poly circles.

Two loves to bring this up as me taking action for something said about poly while doing their utmost to avoid the fact that the person was clearly warned for something else. They also have an interesting habbit of not being able to remember what happened and sometimes bringing up me banning someone for this.

So I present to you their proof!

Which is found on their own sub here

So looking at the image you see me warning someone for insulting another user, a clear violation of R1 both there and here.

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AnarcrotheAlchemist 6 points ago +8 / -2

The neutral simplified version:

KotakuInAction had strict moderation. Partially to try to avoid getting banned from reddit and partially to try and keep things on topic. The mods at KotakuInAction wants to keep the movement focused on video games and not the greater culture war at large. KotakuInAction2 went with lighter moderation, while still having a focus on gaming also discusses the wider cultural war as well.

KIA1 probably overmoderated and a lot of relevant stuff wasn't allowed, but KIA2 is probably a bit too unfocused and a little spammy at times.

KiA attempts to stay politically neutral and tends to ignore wider media and more focuses on gaming media and nerd culture media than tackling the likes of CNN and Fox.

KiA2 has a lot more lax moderation and focuses on the wider cultural war as well (the logic being that gaming and nerd culture issues are just a component of the wider cultural war so the whole thing needs to be talked about otherwise its like saying you can't see the forest because of the trees). This means the KiA2 gets more political and as most of the egregious and overt and obvious examples of unethical behaviour in media at the moment is coming from the left the sub is antileftist.

KiA mods did spend a time calling the users over at KiA2 nazi's white supremacists etc. for awhile which further polarised the divide as well as some KiA2 users making personal insults against KiA mods specifically. At the moment most people just do the live and let live stuff with a lot of people being active on both subs and some that only care about the wider cultural war posting only on KiA2 and others that only care about gaming posting on KiA. KiA2 replaced what KiAchatroom was trying to be in a sense.

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HandofBane 0 points ago +5 / -5

KiA mods did spend a time calling the users over at KiA2 nazi's white supremacists etc. for awhile

That has mostly gotten under control in the last few months, as Antonio has cracked down harder. I think BloodAndSeed finally got suspended by the admins for all his stormfront-tier posting.

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AnarcrotheAlchemist 5 points ago +6 / -1

They painted the whole sub with that brush not just individual posters. If they just kept it to focusing on the individual user it would have been less antagonistic but they called the whole sub and userbase that stuff for months. I understand the personal beef some mods may have with particular users (especially with some of the vitriol thrown their way from some) but that isn't an excuse to pull the same shit that was pulled on KiA by its detractors.

It has been a fair few months since any of the mods have said that about KiA2 though... or even spoke about it (publicly) really. It shouldn't matter anymore as the two subs seemed to have settled into a peaceful coexistence with both serving similar yet complementary purposes.

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HandofBane 1 point ago +4 / -3

I'll just suggest taking a day to go through Dom's userpage, and look at the number of comments he removes for echo-posting, or a wide variety of other things that caused us to take the stance that KiA2 had an actual problem with the extreme end of /pol/ cutting loose to understand why we took the view that KiA2 had a problem. Part of the issue with the entirety of it is that everyone is playing telephone, taking "there is a problem with this here" as "the entire sub is nazis". While I could easily name a dozen KiA2 regulars who regularly crossed that line, at the same time I could easily name a dozen KiA2 regulars who actively fought against it.

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Aurondarklord 5 points ago +8 / -3

Focus and atmosphere.

We try to stick mostly to issues affecting journalism and media, particularly nerdy media, while they lean more towards general social justice bullshit and politics.

We also try to feel like "old reddit" in the sense that we like to be shitposty and fun, but we draw a line at overtly uncivil behavior between users and blatant bigotry. They prefer to cultivate a more chan-like environment.

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nogodafterall 5 points ago +7 / -2

I'd say the easiest difference is that we're focused on gaming/journalism, they're focused on not-gaming/culture war.

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TonyTGD 4 points ago +7 / -3

As someone who jumped to KIA2 upon its creation I saw what lack of moderation brought, and yes it was literally idpol bullshit. Instead of admitting it or , better yet, fixing it the KIA2 mods decided to sweep it under the rug to prove their little experiment was better than KIA. Eventually AOV let power go to his head and forced "troll" flairs on users who deviated from the groupthink. KIA2 is the mirror image of SJWs.

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Skanda 4 points ago +6 / -2

KIA's own little version of the CHAZ.

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HandofBane 0 points ago +4 / -4

Eventually AOV let power go to his head and forced "troll" flairs on users who deviated from the groupthink

I'll admit we have done a handful of "troll" type flairs on some people in the past, albeit most often on people that everyone could easily see was only trolling, but we never pulled the "you must keep your flair on or you will be banned" thing that Antonio did.

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TonyTGD -1 points ago +3 / -4

I would agree putting it on obvious troll would be amusing but AOV considers not agreeing with the herd to be trolling.

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DennJW 3 points ago +8 / -5

KIA2 is a terrible name. I think they should rebrand.

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TheImpossible1 4 points ago +9 / -5

I would have suggested culturewar.win, but they had me banned when they were talking about it.

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Shadist 5 points ago +6 / -1

Shame, it's a good name.

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RedChanIt 1 point ago +3 / -2

Reminds me a bit of the change of r/MetaCanada into OmegaCanada win.

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DennJW 0 points ago +3 / -3

Ooook lol. Well, they can have a lame name if they want, I guess. I think it's going to be a detriment to them, rather than anyone else. But that's their business.

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TonyTGD 1 point ago +6 / -5

Agreed.

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Txiribiton -1 points ago +2 / -3

Exactly.

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Txiribiton 1 point ago +3 / -2

The content is far less focused on the other sub, they talk about lots of other things more related to social justice, but instead of using a name describing their sub they are using the same name as KIA which doesn't make any sense beyond showing a desire to mislead people or show their feeling were hurt here.

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Shadist 2 points ago +3 / -1

That's largely as a result of them wanting to become "the true KiA", so they couldn't ditch the name and keep that as a goal.

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AuEllai 1 point ago +3 / -2

Basically jannie drama, old-style blackjack and hookers story after the jannies went full West Side Story in the parking lot one day.

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Shadist 1 point ago +5 / -4

If you're curious you can find information about our guidelines and rules here

They will be showing up in the sidebar as soon as we're able.

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H_Guderian 1 point ago +3 / -2

KiA's mods inherited a movement they did not build and insisted on neutering whatever power it had left just to be allowed to exist.

Being around since 2014 I would come to KiA for daily updates. KiA nowadays I can skip large periods of time because all the news KiA aggregates is all unactionable or uninteresting. It doesn't -do- anything, and anything that comes down to having a little off topic fun to keep people coming back to the sub was disallowed. Its a sad, low energy shell of what was once one of the most powerful organizing forces in the culture war.

But hey, its on topic and easier to manage. Irrelevance has its advantages.

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H_Guderian 0 points ago +3 / -3

KiA insists on keeping in power those who will overrule the sub as they please. Imagine asking for a vote, it not going your way, and then just overruling the vote.

When the current mod set took over KiA the sub stopped participating in the fight for gaming and merely became spectators.

KiA2 sees no reason to rejoin if all the old corrupt mods are brought right on over.